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marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
52. A bunch of random movements organizes itself into a hurricane
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:50 PM
Nov 2018

It becomes a self-organizing structure that is no longer random. We don't know exactly how this happens. We'll probably never know, because there are too many variables. We assume it all follows the laws of physics, but we can't actually prove it, experimentally. We don't know of some other way it could happen. But that doesn't make it deterministic. We just don't know the answer. We use statistics and mathematically modelling to simulate it, but we still don't know for sure.

But we do know that it can self organize into a hurricane. The hurricane exchanges energy and information within itself (through winds) to maintain itself. It has properties that the original random elements didn't have.

You can think of brains as a self organized system itself. It too built itself up from originally random elements into a structure that exchanges energy and information. Unlike a storm, it is goal directed. No single neuron is conscious or could have anything resembling free will, but put all those neurons together in a certain configuration and it has properties that are not found in any of the elements. We don't know exactly how.

It must have something to do with the complex interconnections, feedback loops, ability to imagine goals and take steps to enact those goals that create the properties of the system. It does things that are goal directed but not random. It is self-organizing, self-aware and self-modulating. It can set itself in configurations that are not pre-programmed, not random, have never been seen before, and will never be seen again. I say that a system with such properties is a free will system.

If you think that the only way that can happen is through some supernatural agent, go right ahead and think that. You won't be alone, you'll in fact be in line with what most of humanity has thought throughout time. I can't disprove it. But I don't see how it violates the laws of physics. I don't see how deterministic processes at the molecular level can't produce a non-deterministic structure at the system level. You making an assumption that it "can't happen" but you can't actually prove that assumption. But I don't see how it isn't a free will system, as I've defined it. I also don't see how a system that isn't pre-programmed and isn't random was nonetheless preordained from the beginning of the universe.

To me THAT would be supernatural, like God omnisciently knowing before creation exactly what you'd be doing right now. Somehow I have to believe the universe itself has that God-like property, but I can't trust my own feeling that I can end this post at any time and get up and do something else. Like I am doing right... now.

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Huh...sounds like you and guil. ret5hd Nov 2018 #1
Yeah, except that I gave up on creating chat bots years ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #2
If by free will you mean the ability to make Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #3
No, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2018 #4
Uncertainty is just our incomplete understanding. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #8
The coin flip is effectively random, because even if we knew all the factors MineralMan Nov 2018 #9
If it makes you happy to believe in the illusion Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #12
If you punish them, it changes their behavior, it doesn't matter if they have free will or not marylandblue Nov 2018 #20
I think the evidence is that punishment Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #21
No that's not what I meant marylandblue Nov 2018 #23
If there were an indeterministic component to the universe, marylandblue Nov 2018 #10
It wouldn't at the scale at which indeterminism is possible. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #11
So if we can't tell the difference between a deterministic universe and indeterministic one marylandblue Nov 2018 #13
Well not as far as I understand Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #14
What's not demonstrable is that the brain's final state marylandblue Nov 2018 #16
Sure- we don't have a clue how to determine Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #18
My point is that there is no meaningful definition of free will that can be derived from physics marylandblue Nov 2018 #19
Physics invalidates the common free choice Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #22
I am not talking about whatever the "common" definition of free will is marylandblue Nov 2018 #24
Here's a story from my own life that might illustrate: MineralMan Nov 2018 #25
So do you agree that we exist in a universe Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #33
Well, it seems to, as far as we know. MineralMan Nov 2018 #36
Our experiential existence might include Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #38
I disagree. MineralMan Nov 2018 #39
Then please define what you mean by free will. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #34
Your brain has a neurological architecture based on genetics marylandblue Nov 2018 #35
So you are claiming that you have a supernatural Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #37
No, I am claiming that the system is designed to produce marylandblue Nov 2018 #40
Then your system is outside the natural world. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #41
You are jumping to conclusions without evidence marylandblue Nov 2018 #42
A system whose next state is not entirely Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #44
Lot's of systems are not determined by their current state marylandblue Nov 2018 #50
Weather systems operate entirely within Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #51
A bunch of random movements organizes itself into a hurricane marylandblue Nov 2018 #52
Good points. The human brain is a completely natural thing. MineralMan Nov 2018 #53
There is no way to repeat such an experiment, so there is no way to know marylandblue Nov 2018 #17
A few times every year, on a sandspit near Morro Bay, California MineralMan Nov 2018 #5
I've always found this to be incredibly dopey. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #6
You are what your brain thinks, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #7
Cognitive science currently holds the same view. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #15
a few years back my niece had to read Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner for her masters degre Kurt V. Nov 2018 #26
I read that book long, long ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #27
skinner was a humble person. he was asking scientist to treat human behavior as a science. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #28
Skinner has some insights into behavior that can be used MineralMan Nov 2018 #29
He wasn't alone though Kurt V. Nov 2018 #30
Of course not. He still has followers who use his MineralMan Nov 2018 #31
i too find it extremely interesting. peace Kurt V. Nov 2018 #32
Not alone, but in a minority. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #43
the internal dispositional factors don't appear out of thin air. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #45
No one says they do. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #46
right. so where does the internal disposition come from. a lifetime of experiences. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #47
Determinism isn't passe. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #48
yep. my bad on that. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #49
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