Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: How the NRA Rewrote the 2nd Amendment -- The Founders never intended to create unregulated guns [View all]MarvinGardens
(781 posts)11. Of rights and straw men.
(Please, unless you have several eminent constitutional scholars (not mediocre conservative judges) to quote, please do not post your amateur or NRA or GOP arguments disagreeing with Burger and Waldman.
First of all, this is a democracy, and I have every bit as much right to my opinion on law and government as the most educated attorney or historian. I am not defending rampant ignorance or stupidity, but not all of us have time in our lives to become Supreme Court justices. And this is a discussion board where individuals can anonymously (or not) present their views. If you are of the opinion that only the views of legal scholars matter, then consider that this reply isn't really for you, but for others who may benefit from hearing a counterpoint to your views.
Not that I really need to disagree with the author of this piece much, nor with Burger or Waldman. So the 2nd Amendment was not interpreted (i.e. by judges, attorneys, and politicians) to protect an individual right to own a gun until recently. For the sake of this argument here, I'll just say, OK, I accept that. But it is now, right? Right? By the Supreme Court, no less. Oh, but you might say, this was a bullshit political decision, informed by a bullshit revisionist historical analysis. Do I read you right?
Well, just because an article of our Constitution was not interpreted in the past to protect an individual right, does not mean that it is illegitimate to interpret it that way now. The Sixth Amendment was not always interpreted to provide for a public defender. The Fourteenth Amendment was not always interpreted to outlaw segregation in public accomodations, protect the rights of whites and blacks to marry, or recognize a right to same sex marriage. Various types of speech were once prosecuted as obscenity, sedition, or desecration, but are now protected by the First Amendment. The Fourth Amendment did not always provide a "penumbra of privacy" that protected the right to an abortion, but it does now. Do you think that these modern interpretations are also wrong because they deviate from previous historical interpretations? It is my un-scholarly opinion that Plessy v. Ferguson was wrong and Brown v. Board of Education was correct. Do you think that Brown versus Board was wrong because it went against established precedent? I doubt it.
Anyway, sometimes rights are recognized when public opinion shifts. This is true of many of the above examples. From your cited article:
In the meantime, the individual right argument was starting to win in another forum: public opinion. In 1959, according to a Gallup poll, 60 percent of Americans favored banning handguns; that dropped to 41 percent by 1975 and 24 percent in 2012. By early 2008, according to Gallup, 73 percent of Americans believed the Second Amendment guaranteed the rights of Americans to own guns outside the militia.
Is this changing interpretation of rights political? Yes, yes it is. The Constitution is ultimately a political document
My arguments above notwithstanding, you could still argue that the Heller decision was poorly reasoned and incorrect, irrespective of it being a modern versus an older interpretation. Even if you successfully argued this and I agreed with your argument, it would not change my position on the right to keep a firearm being an individual right. Irrespective of the Second Amendment, I believe the right to keep a reasonable weapon for defense of one's home and family is a basic human right, an unenumerated right protected by the Ninth Amendment. Furthermore, I believe that the Fourth Amendment penumbra of privacy forbids the government from coming into my home to seize an inanimate possession of mine (guns, sex toys, drugs, etc.), if I am not using that object to harm anyone else, unless they have an extremely compelling reason to do so. Not only is this latter interpretation of the Fourth Amendment un-scholarly, but I recognize that it does not have mainstream acceptance. Nonetheless, it is my opinion, and I have a very expansive view of civil liberties.
For the sake of argument, let's say that you successfully defeated all of my rights arguments above, in the courts of law and public opinion. I would still argue for statute law to grant the privilege of owning a weapon for home defense to the vast majority of non-criminal citizens, because it is good public policy. The police can't be everywhere all the time.
Lastly, "The Founders never intended to create unregulated guns" is a bit of a straw man. I've never read anyone on DU arguing in favor of unregulated guns.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
88 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
How the NRA Rewrote the 2nd Amendment -- The Founders never intended to create unregulated guns [View all]
sharedvalues
May 2019
OP
The fact that Scalia redacted 1/2 of the 2nd Amendment to support his "originalist" view
guillaumeb
May 2019
#3
True, but he did need to dismiss 1/2 of the Amendment to support his claimed originalist argument.
guillaumeb
Jun 2019
#16
President Obama, HRC and Bernie Sanders have all said the 2A protects an individual right
hack89
Jun 2019
#17
"(Y)ou will not smear them or Waldman." My my, aren't *we* full of ourselves!
friendly_iconoclast
May 2019
#6
Ahem. You don't actually *get* to shape others' replies to you. Also...
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#27
"Pastor Robert Jeffress Says Disney Supports 'Murdering Children'...
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#36
"If the gun restrictionists quit aping the fetus fetishists, the meme will go away."
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#43
Lots of obvious propaganda techniques, little to no actual evidence
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#28
Blatant propaganda and cheap appeals to pity don't move me, and never have
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#33
Sounds like the gestation slavers claiming that Roe v Wade ought to be overturned
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#48
I'm neither impressed nor intimidated by mere bluster and chronic logorrhea
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#53
You are laser focused on Miller and ignoring my other arguments in this thread.
MarvinGardens
Jun 2019
#77
It seems Con Law lectures at Internet Search Engine University focus on Miller...
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#78
Well, when you only have one decision, rendered because the defendant died, and the defense didn't
AtheistCrusader
Jun 2019
#81
Once again, you've demonstrated that pious fraud is part and parcel of gun control advocacy
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#49
"(Miller) did not say that militia service is required for gun ownership." True...
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#56
You weren't to notice those inconvenient details amidst all the bluster and handwaving
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#60
re: "Republicans love guns because gun identity politics gets people...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
Jun 2019
#25
Miller is no more valid today than Minersville School District v. Gobitis
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#50
And if it was, we'd all have the right to own an Army-issue (and fully automatic) M4...
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#59
"a unorganized militia is NOT well regulated. It could not possibly be what madison intended"
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#61
Evangelists of all stripes want believers, not thinkers. Thinkers tend to ask pesky questions...
friendly_iconoclast
Jun 2019
#87