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pat_k

(13,470 posts)
32. Since about 300 AD, when Constantine corrupted the faith...
Tue Apr 14, 2026, 08:53 PM
22 hrs ago

...by transforming it into an institutional, hierarchical entity that, above all, served the political goals of the state, the process of institutionalizing and co-opting spiritual practice to serve political ends has been repeated again and again.

Or as Talarico puts it, Constantine was essentially the first Christian Nationalist -- the first to corrupt the teachings by embracing the love of power over the power of love.

IMO, the core of early Christianity -- it's embrace of equality, community, radical sharing, and the notion that people committed to putting selfless love into practice were a revolutionary force for good -- can be difficult to discern in the muck that has been piled on in the doctrines of many Christian denominations.

Not all denominations are Christian Nationalist, but it seems to me that doctrine of "mainstream" denominations tends to be co-opted to serve the interests of those who hold the upper hand at a given point in history, whether it be the subjugation of women to the patriarchy, the exploitation of workers by those with wealth and power, or the oppression of minority ethnic groups to the majority.

There are of course exceptions -- denominations or doctrines that empower the oppressed -- but those seem to get co-opted too as they go "mainstream."

I could, of course, be full of shit. I haven't made a formal study of it.

But, as far as the question of when life begins, it is a matter of religious doctrine -- doctrine shaped by political forces.

For example, in the Catholic Church doctrine against abortion at any stage was one of Pope Pius IX's dictums. In 1869 he issued Apostolicae Sedis, which eliminated the distinction between animated and unanimated fetuses, applying automatic excommunication to abortion at any stage.

Unlike many of the other immoral declarations of Pope Pius IX, this one has not yet been deemed erroneous by later Vatican councils. Pius IX doctrine that has been deemed erroneous includes: No Freedom of Conscience, No Salvation outside the Church, No Rights for Non-Christian Religions, No Respect for Other Christian Churches, No Socialism, and No Condemnation of Slavery

If you are curious, erroneous beliefs which Pope Pius IX tried to impose on the Church compares his teachings to the revised teachings of Vatican II.

And, whatever this or that denomination may assert, it appears that the bible is all over the place on when life begins. For example, in When does life begin? Reckoning with surprising answers in Scripture, Rev. Dr. Dan Brockway examines various bits of scripture. His conclusion:

Perhaps the biggest takeaway from surveying the Bible’s teaching around life and when it begins is that we need to exercise some humility. As Christians, we should strive to relate all of our views and actions to Scripture. When the witness of Scripture is not fully clear—and especially when it clashes with our assumptions—that should call our own certainty into question and inspire humility.

Maybe we are not meant to fully understand when life begins. Maybe God—in God’s infinite wisdom—decided that such knowledge is beyond our paygrade. And maybe that’s okay.


When it comes to the law, the views of any practitioner of any religion are irrelevant. (And would be irrelevant but for the corruption of SCOTUS). Even though the Reverend's conclusion has no place in a legal discussion, we wouldn't be in such a hellish place if his view was more widespread.

BTW, it always struck me as a little odd that Roe v. Wade was grounded solely in the right to privacy, with no corollary that bans of abortion violate the establishment clause (government favoring one religion's view of when life begins) and the free exercise of religion.



Recommendations

1 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

So, now they want a theocracy? UpInArms Yesterday #1
That's absolutely what the Christian Nationalists that promote Prj 2025 want pat_k Yesterday #28
And yet the WH is telling the Pope to stick his business ................ Lovie777 Yesterday #2
Democratic presidents have had respectful disagreement with the Catholic church exboyfil Yesterday #3
It's "Democratic", not "Democrat" AZ8theist Yesterday #9
Noted and changed exboyfil Yesterday #16
It means he wants to have it both ways ... like always FakeNoose Yesterday #17
These zealots want to cram their extreme religion down everyone's throats! nwduke Yesterday #4
They want us down on our knees... lastlib Yesterday #11
"Trying to reproduce and retrofit what your ancestors fled, and vomit it forth in THIS country, will lead to trouble." OldBaldy1701E Yesterday #5
"Trouble" like what happened around the country in the 1800s with the "Know Nothings" BumRushDaShow Yesterday #7
When I was growing up in Erie, PA law required wnylib Yesterday #19
Yes - it took that SCOTUS ruling in the '60s to reaffirm the Constitution BumRushDaShow Yesterday #22
Besides the "extra books" (Apochrypha) in the Catholic Bible, wnylib Yesterday #24
i have a separate book with the Apocrypha BumRushDaShow Yesterday #25
There are several Jews in Erie. My widower grandfather wnylib Yesterday #26
Who knew the Constitution was just meant as suggestions. Buddyzbuddy Yesterday #6
Kevin Philips predicted this in his "American Theocracy" (2006) dedl67 Yesterday #8
He has written EuterpeThelo Yesterday #12
This message was self-deleted by its author orangecrush Yesterday #10
This message was self-deleted by its author orangecrush Yesterday #13
its writen in the constitution morans. AllaN01Bear Yesterday #14
If There Wasn't A Pastafarianism On That Committee modrepub Yesterday #15
They can have their union of church and state ... SomewhereInTheMiddle 16 hrs ago #35
"The words separation of church and state boonecreek Yesterday #18
100% project 2025 Nigrum Cattus Yesterday #20
Texas, where religious liberty means voucher money for private Christian schools but not Islamic schools ChicagoTeamster Yesterday #21
Who cares what Trump Thinks eringer Yesterday #23
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE is the cornerstone of RELIGIOUS LIBERTY Martin Eden Yesterday #27
Every law they pass that imposes the beliefs of one religion on those who do not share the beliefs... pat_k Yesterday #29
"And that includes laws banning abortion." Martin Eden Yesterday #31
Since about 300 AD, when Constantine corrupted the faith... pat_k 22 hrs ago #32
I appreciate your historical knowledge and analysis Martin Eden 21 hrs ago #33
Great way to frame it all. pat_k 16 hrs ago #34
The connotations to the historical usage of "establishment" dickthegrouch Yesterday #30
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