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cab67

(3,659 posts)
58. Brazilian scientists take a very dim view of colonialist attitudes.
Wed Dec 17, 2025, 01:33 PM
Dec 17

This comes up in my own field because it's illegal to export fossils out of the country that weren't collected before some point in the 1940's. But illegally shipped fossils still show up in rock shops and, from time to time, museum collections outside of South America.

One case in particular comes to mind. A group of European and American paleontologists described what they thought might be a very primitive kind of snake with all four limbs. We already knew of snakes with hindlimbs - Haasiophis and Pachyophis from Israel come to mind - but all four? This was new. It was from Brazil.

There were all kinds of ethical issues with the study. The specimen was in a private collection on loan to a museum, for example. That's generally a no-no; if a specimen doesn't have a catalog number from a recognized public-trust institution, journals typically won't consider manuscripts including them for peer review. No one was willing to explain how the specimen got from Brazil to Germany. Worse, the paper was written without the input of any Brazilian scientists - and there are several Brazilian experts on snake evolution and fossil reptiles.

And because of the way it was acquired, information was lost. We didn't know where, exactly, it was from - we could tell it came from a particular region in Brazil known for fossils, but without knowing the precise locality, our understanding of its precise age and paleoenvironment are limited.

That the specimen later proved to be a different kind of reptile distantly related to lizards, and not a snake at all, added to the confusion. And when that was revealed, the specimen's owner took offense and retrieved it. Now, it's no longer available for direct study. (This is one of the reasons it's considered unethical to work on specimens in private collections.)

A lot of my Brazilian colleagues wrote extensively about this case. There are perfectly good museums in Brazil, there are perfectly qualified Brazilian scientists who could have collaborated on the project, and we have no idea whether it was legally shipped out of the country. This struck many of them as coming from the kind of attitude that allowed European colonial powers (as well as the US) to strip their overseas possessions (and even places they didn't control) of their natural and cultural patrimony. I think they're right.

To this day, if I want to look at crocodile remains (modern or fossil) from Africa, I don't inly go Nairobi, Addis Ababa, or Dar es Salaam. I also go to London, Paris, and other Western cities. Whether they should all be repatriated is not a simple thing, but it's a legitimate discussion to undertake.

I occasionally have people bring me things they bought at a rock show, or maybe even at an outdoor market in Brazil. They ask if we're willing to accept it as a donation for our paleo collections. I have to respond that we can't touch it - it would be way too ethically problematic. I won't report these people or anything - they genuinely didn't know there might be a law against buying such fossils, and so far, none of the specimens I've been shown has been anything other than a well-known species - but if they hoped they could write a donation off on their taxes, they're disappointed.

Recommendations

1 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Why was he even talking about Peruvian vipers in the first place? Ocelot II Dec 16 #1
Think of his cabinet, perhaps? SheltieLover Dec 16 #3
Professional courtesy? Jerry2144 Dec 16 #4
Vipers, maybe, but why Peruvian vipers? Who's talking about Peru at all? Ocelot II Dec 16 #5
Confused w/Venezuela ? Not at all beyond possibility -- in fact, quite probable. eppur_se_muova Dec 16 #7
He was evidently discussing someone in the room. cab67 Dec 16 #14
No viper would tolerate such a comparison. cab67 Dec 16 #12
He surrounds himself with them. Why wouldn't he talk about them? jmowreader Dec 16 #10
No, he doesn't. cab67 Dec 16 #13
This story had the victim escorting BidenRocks Dec 16 #35
He murdered Truth about 10 years ago. maxsolomon Dec 16 #2
Reagan was notorious... GiqueCee Dec 16 #6
"To the people of Bolivia, or someplace like that." eppur_se_muova Dec 16 #8
And to Brazilians no less! peppertree Dec 16 #28
"Snoozalini" -- Bwaah! Pinback Dec 17 #55
Why, thank you. peppertree Dec 17 #56
Brazilian scientists take a very dim view of colonialist attitudes. cab67 Dec 17 #58
True. 'Colonialist attitude' is the GOPee's middle name. peppertree Dec 17 #63
Things just pop in his head and then leak out of his mouth PatSeg Dec 16 #9
Only about one-half. The others end up in his Depends. erronis Dec 16 #11
Ha, ha, yeah I think you're right PatSeg Dec 16 #30
Fun fact: There are no poisonous snakes. markodochartaigh Dec 16 #15
My daughter knows this. cab67 Dec 16 #22
About half of the adults that markodochartaigh Dec 16 #25
and I'm willing to bet about half of those don't understand the explanation. cab67 Dec 16 #31
Have you ever bitten a snake? IronLionZion Dec 16 #24
I've never had a reason to bite one. cab67 Dec 16 #34
This is arguable since there are snakes that have a good chance of being poisonous. PurgedVoter Dec 17 #53
We saw a Fer de Lance in Costa Rica obamanut2012 Dec 16 #16
very lucky! cab67 Dec 16 #21
The point is to be very afraid of anyone brown or black IronLionZion Dec 16 #17
Those are gorgeous snakes. cab67 Dec 16 #19
The president need not be a trained herpetologist shakeyslim Dec 16 #18
That is 10 over the span of 2000-2015 relayerbob Dec 16 #20
no, it's ten per year. cab67 Dec 16 #23
What do you expect from a demented, senile IMBECILE? AZ8theist Dec 16 #26
Thank you SuzyandPuffpuff Dec 16 #27
Snakes on the brain. SusieCreamcheese Dec 16 #29
It's the snakes that fall out of trees that scare the bejesus out of me FakeNoose Dec 16 #32
True story - cab67 Dec 16 #36
The Confabulator in Chief is hemorrhaging brain cells Hassler Dec 16 #33
Not only 10 people but 10 people over 15 years nt Javaman Dec 16 #37
pretty sure it's ten per year cab67 Dec 16 #38
I have to find the article Javaman Dec 16 #39
I might be wrong as well. cab67 Dec 16 #46
Yup you're right. Javaman Dec 16 #40
I appreciate the fact check. cab67 Dec 16 #47
When we were going to Costa Rica to zipline, tavernier Dec 16 #41
I encountered driver ants in Kenya this past summer. cab67 Dec 16 #43
Mr eyelash was especially interesting since it had wrapped itself tavernier Dec 16 #48
I have seen a fer-de-lance in Costa Rica. My gardener killed one 2 weeks ago and brought to the house to show me! sinkingfeeling Dec 16 #42
why did he kill it? cab67 Dec 16 #45
He said it started to flee when he encountered it within 20 feet of my pool, but then sinkingfeeling Dec 17 #50
I talked about this in a previous post Wiz Imp Dec 16 #44
His brain is undergoing frontotemporal dementia - on top of the malignant narcissistic personality disorder summer_in_TX Dec 16 #49
"besides, its the coastal taipan" got my ho ho ho this morning. rampartd Dec 17 #51
most blather out of oompa's hamburger hole is bullshit. if he was poor at a bar, he's be a crank. pansypoo53219 Dec 17 #52
My takeaway is that Trump is afraid of a lot of things. yardwork Dec 17 #54
It's so refreshing to listen to real expertise on this MadameButterfly Dec 17 #57
Sorry if this has already been addressed. But I learned ages ago that a viper is a general term for many snakes. efhmc Dec 17 #59
Coral snakes (which occur in Texas) aren't true vipers. cab67 Dec 17 #60
If a viper bit tRUMP Conjuay Dec 17 #61
Why would a snake be interested in Twinklesphincter? cab67 Dec 17 #62
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