story that needed to be told. i am glad she is allowing it to be heard.

even just sending it to you

She has hugs coming from me.

with tears in his eyes.

Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2013, 06:10 PM - Edit history (3)

I don't think there is any way a person can possibly understand what she went through. Unfortunately, there are many women out there with a similar story.

I read the posts about "If women have to get their tits out to make a point, so be it." and the variations. I haven't posted on any of those threads because they all seem to go to hell in a hand-basket within a few replies to the OP. Not that the OP was necessarily all that great either.

I believe that what the activist in Tunisia did could have been presented here on DU in a calm, neutral manner. It would have been a good story. The goal of her actions were to protest her government and the overt religious nature of that government which still treats women as property of their fathers' then husbands' and that still supports "honor" killings of women. Isn't it telling that in so many places those "honor" killings are the killing only of the woman. The man involved often gets lashes or the rod or can buy his way out of it.

It is sad to me that the goal of this activist woman and her message have been completely obliterated by the fact she bared her breasts. I do believe that a woman in an Islamic country baring herself from the waist up and writing protest messages on her chest as a protest is newsworthy. She basically put a target for assassination on herself.

There was absolutely no reason to ever use the word "tits" to present that story here. That is most certainly a misogynistic, sexist term used by men to refer to women as if they were milk-cows. Sure it got the post a lot of traffic. But not the kind of traffic the real story should have gotten. From a sociological standpoint it would have been very interesting to see that story presented in a way that only mentioned her bare breasts anecdotally to her message and see what response it got in comparison to blazing the word "tits" in a title. It's not at all surprising that the male who posted the thread with "tits" in the title actually thinks he's being supportive of women. After all, the text of his OP says so.

I don't know how to end this post except to acknowledge that there are a lot of us men out there who are jerks, unaware, and so ignorant we sometimes don't even realize we offend. (yes, I'm taking a huge license to speak on behalf of all men here). Of course, ignorance is not an excuse and in 2013 I'm not really sure a man can actually claim ignorance anymore. So I guess I have to ask you to continue to educate us where it is painfully apparent our upbringing and experiences have not educated us - or curbed us. Yes, continue to shame us too when we deserve it. And yes, we deserve it.

THIS says what the issues were, and does so with respect to both women and men.

Thank you and blessings to you.

on purpose as a way to diminish her protest and women in general. It was used to garner locker room chuckles. If they OP was serious about a serious discussion about repression of women in the Muslim world, the Op would have been present similar to your comment.

The opposition I have to protests like that was shown in those types of OP's. A very powerful protest over run with "look at those..." The message became lost and meaningless., while at the same time proving the point of objectifying women. Just not to those who needed to pay attention.

Now we have pretty much the same group telling women of DU because the are worse problems facing women all over the world, than in the US they need a reality check, because women on DU do not devote all their time focusing on these problems they can't be taken seriously.

my disclaimer:
I am wearing makeup as I write this, so I am actually trying to make myself sexually appealing and should not be taken seriously.

this was her point of saying, talk her down, from the anger, sadness, hurt that she was feeling. and she has support. at home.

and goals ahead of her, that she wants to do, that we talked about. that she feels she needs to get done, one day, she promises herself, cause she is that good. and it is something that needs to be done. this was a first step. she has a journey.

direct her to us here on DU.

Some days I want to ask for a group called "'Serious People and Serious Discussions' but I'm not sure how I'd define that.

It just seems too many times here there are so many people who want to have a serious discussion who get drowned out by the noise of people whose lives, at this time, are so easily equated with lattes and the front pages of papers and magazines that no longer practice journalism - at least not by the idealistic definition of journalism I learned. They overtake serious discussion with discussion of modern-day celebrities and their foibles. They overtake serious discussion with discussions of how they'll outfit their new offspring in brand-label wares and clothes. They twiddle over just what some celebrity is doing to the detriment of scrutiny within their own sphere, within their own control.

Like zombies they line up at the WalMart for the latest bargain regardless of the knowledge people in third-world countries have been beaten and barely paid to make that flimsy WalMart couture that they will be lucky to wear more than once before it disintegrates. Oh, but that's not really a problem. We just throw stuff out all the time. It magically disappears. We put it in those magical plastic bags from whatever trash bag company tells us their bags are biodegradable. Sure, they're biodegradable with a half-life of about a thousand years.

We are a sick, sick people. Mother Nature will eventually laugh as we go down, not in flames of the Bible, but of our own ignorance that will make our planet uninhabitable. Slowly and painfully.

and loves her and too much to do in life. she also said that the replies are like she lanced a boil and the relief of it. just gotta figure out how to drain it. lol. and yes, writing is a good idea.

honestly, to wake up this morning and hear from her, and others on this Op, i just kinda lighter also. so, i am glad she spoke up for herself.

i have appreciated your last two posts. very thoughtful and thought provoking. int he group, there can be a lot more serious convo. mostly though we let the opportunity pass because there seems to be too many battles that interfere. and ya, battles. as pathetically sad and unnecessary that is.

I was in a thread, just last night, where someone was wondering what could have happened to me to become so damaged. All because I thought him telling his 15 year old daughter that she can be nude around him, was crossing a line and was sick.

Yet, I was the vile one, I was the bully. And then opinions were formed that I must really be damaged goods, to think it was wrong of him to tell his teenage daughter this.

This place aint the real world, and there are creeps and sickos here just as there are all over the internet.

i guess

person and people she aimed at... The divergence to teens walking around naked around their father was a bit too far for me. We are still in a society that teaches modesty, etc. We aren't an aboriginal tribe with little to no outside interference in a warm climate where women and men shirtless is "tradition". Until it was "normal" for men and women to walk around in the buff or at least shirtless from the waiste up without it being "sexualized" or sensationalized, then I think its weird.

I personally tend to be a naked person. However, I have a 9 yr old son and modesty is observed... I'd hate for him to think whipping down his pants at school in front of everyone was a good idea (it would be an expulsion)... Its just the way it is for now. Maybe it will be completely different in the future? But for now, women exposing their breasts is a "sexual" idea in this country and not a "who cares" norm. I have to say it was quite wonderful being on a beach in Spain and not having to have tan lines or men oggling about like idiots when I didn't have a suit top on.

nude swimming ect.... and one would be considered a real assholish moron if they did. just was not done. and yes. very freeing. we have taken a step back in this area, incredibly. now girls must do a striptease and perform for the men, and not own their sexuality independently of male.

nakedness is simply that. no more. in our house. always has been. and we do not go out of our way to be, any more than the other side of the coin. boy did naked for years young. what better freedom than no diaper outside in the heat of the day. i have one son that walked into modesty about 10. i have another son at 15 that wont shut a bathroom door to shower and will walk thru house to get clothes.

it is one huge meh...

but, ya. i hear ya. i have know people where that type of language does not come off well. for one reason or another.

The writer of the PM has talent and writes well. If she wrote her autobiography down in long form (book length), it would help her.

She need not show it to anyone, but if she did, at some point in the future, entirely at her choice, it might do someone else a world of good. She has the talent that she might be able to do the world some good were it published, but she has no obligation to do anything like that. Writing out is primarily for herself and if that is as far as it goes, so be it.

For writing for long term storage to delay showing the history for decades if need be (or to never show), format it for compatibility and durability. Write it out as a set of simple text files per chapter. Put it on a USB stick or two and a DVD / CD (for backup redundancy: three copies) and put them in a bank safe deposit box. Then deep format the drives of the computer it was written on (write all over the drives) so that the operating system and software needs to be re-installed.

the GD thread. Anyone who uses that outside of a comedic manner misses the point because

FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS ARE STILL PROBLEMS

that I'm sorry that your friend who sent the email has had to suffer what she has.

My own mother's story is much the same.

But what your friend has gone through and what I wrote have nothing to do with each other.

If you'd taken the time to actually read what I wrote, perhaps you could have shared that with your friend and it might have ameliorated her pain a little.

But you DIDN'T take the time to read what I wrote, and you admit it.

So there it is. Post an OP without reading what you're actually attacking, post an email that might or might not be real, NEVER admit that your earlier posts concerning Amina were bogus and hateful and way out of bounds and call me out by name.

We good here? Did I miss anything??

You are not the giant you think you are. You are not the voice of truth I wish you were.

but shit none the less.

if you would re read the edit line, you will see i was saying that when i received the pm, i had not read the whole of your OP or the thread. so i was really unaware of what the "to do" was about. i got to the bullshit about comparing to strippers, and walked. because if you actually read what i typed in that subthread, no way can you walk away with thinking i or the other poster were comparing the protester to a stripper. that would be dishonest.

i wasnt even sure what thread she was talking about. i did not know that is the one i had gone into earlier. i had to hunt it down, after reading her pm

and hunt it down i did.

and read thru your whole bullshit OP

and read thru the thread.

so, what i wrote was perfectly logical and truthful, and you followed it down a rabbit hole followed by bullshit insult.

getting the drift.....

did i miss anything? ya. i am sure i did. cause it is not actually about what i say. it is how you and others want to perceive something. and even when it is spelled out for you on the thread by others, you stick fingers in the ears and start singing, get your pat on the back and feel like the hero to women across the world.

and in the meantime, you continue to hurt women in the first world without much thought put in. you have much more of a need to jump back in your other thread for more pats.

It would help if you'd use some punctuation.

And, still, you don't know what I actually wrote.

Or you would see that what she is suffering from and what I wrote about Amina are unrelated, and that your ad-hominum is specious at best.

But go ahead and keep playing because the sooner you hit bottom, the sooner you can get help.

I used to expect more of you.

Now? Not so much.

really clifford? really?

again, you did not address what i actually posted, but the jabber of word salad. no, it was not tough to figure out. i used simple sentences.

this is a regular duer. she has followed what is going on from the beginning. i did not NEED to explain to her what was going on. she is quite capable herself, figuring it out.

although I had nothing to do with it.


Funny how much grief you are giving me for NOT trivializing Amina's peril.


Actually, that is very telling and a perfect end to the evening.

Good night, and good luck.

you are told a fact, and you ignore it for your own comfort of believing what you want to create. for whatever reason.

Your post was the trigger, it was a diminishment of womens issues here in the US.

That somehow 3 murdered women a day in the US, usually by their male partner, means less.

That the sexual assault of 1 and 3 women is somehow less because we live in the USA.

That the rape of 1 in 6 women is somehow less important because they live in the US.

How many women in the US must be battered, sexually assaulted, murdered before our voices mean more to some than just a gnat buzzing around their ear?

punctuation and try to sidestep your role in causing the reaction?

You need to step back and have a think, bub.

Word salad has a specific meaning and you apparently don't understand what it is.

http://examples.yourdictionary.com/reference/examples/examples-of-word-salad.html

A post over a year old? kinda desperate, arent we???

because I called someone to task the other day. These kind souls had to go back a year to slime me on something.

Kool. I LOVES me some google.

I would suspect I'll be getting lots of old posts drug from the grave to show the world what a complete gutless shitsucking cretin I really am.

Who knows, Mebbe I'll be a shining example of misogyny and a proven valedictorian of the rape culture, although neither are true.

Calls em' like you sees 'em and you can get painted with all kinds of interesting garbage by a half dozen arbiters around here, all of whom howl about what they think is correct thought and behavior..


Or maybe, like the original OP, they just won't read what they are howling about.

But that's just my ignorant, phallicentriic, viagra fueled opinion.

I didn't think possible from progressives.

Yet you managed it just fine, I guess.

I read your post, and you decided that women in the USA don't have shit to complain about. That's it in a nutshell.

Ya gotta go back a year for this shit?

What the fuck is the matter with you?

go to the end of this thread. You will see who re-opened this thread and why. You might, then, consider extending a humble apology to those you so easily malign.

about what she'd expressed in her OP. I'll look for a copy.

A private email. To her.

As for the rest of the firing squad? Who gives a shit what you think is proper or reprehensible?

If I decide to malign you, there will be no mistake about it. .

And if I DO make a mistake, I'll apologize. In a PM.

But I'll not scourge myself in front of the crowd.

Oh, yeah. I don't give a fuck what you collectively think of me.

I answered this because I'm avoiding housework.

You seem to be making plenty of assumptions about me based on the fact that I have posted in HOF.

I could not care less what you give an F about. The post I directed you to, at the end of this thread, was made by the person who sent sea the email in this OP. The re-opening of this thread has nothing to do with you or the people you have no trouble judging as a collective firing squad.

I'm not self absorbed enough to think you were maligning me. I just thought you might want more info before exploding all over this thread considering the sensitive subject matter. It's really not about you.

I hope, under other circumstances, our meeting might be a little more friendly.

Thanks for your input, though.

PS: I NEVER willingly post here. I was attacked upstream and replied.

And that's the size of it.

And any apology on an innernet board is worth exactly what anyone might pay for it.

Pfthh

Please read the thread and realize that you are completely off base here. Look at dates and time stamps to notice your error, in regards to me, please.

I'd imagine the guilty soul would rather a time-limit be placed on his own words.

Words I said and still opine like you know wtf you are talking about.

You seem irrational, shrill, and overly-emotional. Possibly calming down and writing in a more rational manner would allow us to better understand your dramatic plight.

Did you refer to?
It was only a year ago and no one seems to know what I said to be called out in the OP.

Your name calling here is almost interesting. Try again.

I don't know what you're talking about.

So, no, I can't provide to you a link. I can't even remember what it was about.

You're acting like I just wrote that post last night. You do realize you are responding to a post nearly a year old, right?

I'm being g attacked for something I wrote in that post from a year ago, right now.

I get the feeling none of the attackers know what the fuck they are attacking me over. Who can say?

Sorry you got caught in the current bullshit.

The location of a human problem (violence, intimidation, psychological pressure, coercion) does not matter. (Agreeing with Lordquinton.)

What is commonly referred to as a "first-world problem" is a sardonic way of referring to 'problems' like choosing which kind of furry toilet seat cover to buy or whether to up-size an order of fries or whether one premium brand of vodka is better than another. As if all people should be so comfortable and happy that those are their biggest problems.

Here is a link to an excellent thread about an All-World problem: http://www.democraticunderground.com/113725879

I am so sorry that the broad brush of DU made it seem like your life was roses. It clearly wasn't but I hope the next few decades will be.

I hope she can continue to mend and feel better about herself, and understand that she has far more support here than she may think. And I thank her for allowing her story to be told here.

As for the 'men' who taunt, and snicker, and laugh: I wish that the worst offenders would see this thread and stop with their bullshit, but they won't. They get too much pleasure from anonymously bashing women on the internet. Their identity is too tied up in vanquishing the evil feminists of DU, and they will never stop, no matter who may get caught in the crossfire. My advice to all is to figure out who the worst offenders are, they're easy to find, and just put them on Ignore. I've done that with many of them, and it really has improved my experience here. I do not miss them, although I notice that they still respond to me - they haven't figured out that I'm officially ignoring them. Maybe at some point they will. Trash Thread is also a great feature. I've recently started doing that also and it's working out well.

Thanks for posting this seabeyond. I think it's important to bring this to the attention of everyone and perhaps the ones who still have some basic decency will reflect on their words and change their behavior.

is predominantly populated with sexist, sarcastic, derisive individuals. After I gather enough info for my own post regarding sexism on DU, my list will grow by several more DUers who seem more invested in defending their honor than understanding that sexism IS prevalent on DU, and that it's harmful to us ALL.

(Trashing threads has become a handy way to avoid the most egregious BS...)

what is totally amazing is the need to stick fingers in ear and la la there way along to feel a comfort in their conscious and unconscious want to hurt.

syntax as the OP. The similarities are quite striking. It is almost as if they are the same person. Cheers!

Let's ALL drink to this.....

You had to come here, into this thread, and say that? Disgusting.

ETA: here is your post, for all to see, in case you try to delete it:

i knew this crap was coming from you before i even got to your post. no surprise there. nope.

little games. all for the little egos.

ya, disgusted.

We often see what we want to. I know a sub-literate idiot who pretends to be clever and maintains precisely the same writing style as yours. It's almost as though the two of you are the same person.

Coincidence, or merely implication?

(Although I have often noticed that for the most part, cowards use implication as they lack the courage of their own conviction to write what they mean plainly and unambiguously in order to deny their those same convictions... )

Cheers!

You are wrong and it's obvious enough that the letter was written by someone else that I think you know it and just wanted to be nasty.

has ever been raped or resents sexist crap when she sees it. Is that what you tell yourself?

I'm sorry you went through all that and I'm sorry you are still getting poked with a stick where the wounded parts are. I'm sorry too that I've probably triggered you with my posts. I'm sorry. I don't know how else to fight back except to say things openly, to be in the faces of society.

You've gone through far worse than me. It is a real testament to the strength of your spirit that you survived.

Thank you for sharing with us, it must have been so hard to do that and taken so much courage. You didn't deserve what happened to you. You don't deserve to be dismissed here and treated like you don't matter. I'm sorry.

If there is anything I can do for you, I'm here, I blurt out my own stuff but I don't blurt out others stuff. But I understand if you don't want to, too, because of the triggers, because of everythign, because of just needing sometimes to withdraw to heal.

I wish you better days, better times, I wish you a safe place and feelings of peace. I wish you happy things like a purring kitty or a puppy with soft eyes, like having dessert before supper, like the first warm day of spring and the trees in blossom and the daffodils all cheerful yellow.

and with that comes a freedom.

I feel like there has been a pandemic of meanness in our culture. Of treating other people like they are things. Women get treated like objects, and that hurts. Men get treated like they are cannon fodder or paychecks and nothing else, and that hurts.

And we are all hurting. And we get into a habit where we say, "but I hurt worse than you!" And we fight and we make fun and we hurt others.

The thing is, we are all hurting. And the mutual enemy is the system, really the economic system, that is teaching us from birth to see each other as objects and not precious souls. That teaches us to look through people instead of into their eyes. That teaches us to fight instead of really really listening to someone else.

But the elite, who benefit from all of us fighting amongst ourselves, remain safe.

We are all hurting, and most of us really are hurting very badly. What can we do to help one another, to listen, to treat each other with a respect that is denied all of us in the mainstream society these days?

However, women are an oppressed group, and have been historically. We have less power over these things than any man. We don't pull on the chains of power.

There is a need for feminism, there is a need for equality. There is a need to notice that there is a heirarchy.

All struggles throughout history have been fought and won by people who had something in common and have banded together to right wrongs. If you think that things would change for women if we all just focused on class issues, I'm certain you would be disappointed. Women would still be on a lower rung.

Wow, that's powerful! Wish it was required reading in grade school, for everyone....

Of "tits" and rape and continual critique of what women do and how they do it.

I am beyond sick of women worldwide being the object of toxic conversation and I totally grok where the person who wrote to you is coming from.

Fuck this shit.

We are people, assholes. Independent people, with hearts and souls and brains, and people are talking about us like we are fucking livestock to be managed. And that right there is the root of the problem.

Edit to add: I cannot even believe I had to add "tit" and "tits" to my trash-by-keyword list. What the hell kind of bullshit is going on here? DU has become a very toxic place for women.

And then to come to DU and read some of the shit said here. It's just fucked up and mean, imho.

Also, I wish they would put some teeth in the TOS. They just don't seem to get it. Maybe some day they will I hope. NGU.

Just shut up and go away DU would be great for the Menzies and they are the only ones who matter.

Or maybe it's simply a financial decision....perhaps they do not change the TOS, for financial reasons.

But I personally doubt it. I honestly believe they simply do not understand the harm being done to women here. Maybe someday someone in their real life, who has been adversely effected with misogyny, etc will explain the harm & hurt being done on DU in a way that they can actually hear. I doubt it will be any of us here in cyberspace.

I can understand not being able to know what you don't know. It's happened to me plenty of times. I simply couldn't hear/know until I finally got one of those aha moments. I hope their aha moment comes sooner rather than later. I always think of those moments as personal growth and change course once the light bulb goes off. I hope the same for them because they really are good people, they just can't know what they don't yet know, just like the rest of us.

woman are too sensitive and do not let the men play and it is not all sexism. that we see it around the corners.

put yourself in the place of adm. they really do not get it. and i think they are insightful enough to acknowledge that. i think they have acknowledged that. and they listen to the women on du.

look at all the women that support sexism, and mens behavior at every turn.

i think that has as much to do with it as anything.

out battle has never been just with govt/administration. our battle has never been with only men. we have always had to fight a lot of women for THEIR rights.

someone in their real life, who has been adversely effected with misogyny or god forbid worse before they get an aha moment.

daughters is the only way. not a mom. not a sister. not a wife. not a friend.

daughters. that seems to be the only push, that gets the results.

sons. and no, i do not think either of the other two are gay. i am not real sure, though. i havent heard mention of it and i am sure they would be open.

on what to do/not do to avoid getting raped. i notice many who are praising and saying a woman has a right to go topless without being threatened .

well, do american women have a right to attend parties and have a good time and drink just like the guys do without worrying about being raped ?

this is one thing that has really stuck out to me.

i mean, you can read down the names and see a histroy of anti woman, yet they are now the perceived heros of women around the world. totally a wacky saturday.

one of those that stood out was one that criticized those who were critical of the pope/vatican/catholic church based on their position on issues concerning gays, women and some other things.

but femen has also protested the pope/vatican by taking off their clothes and this same person is supportive of them.

so it wasn't ok when protesting by wearing clothes and speaking out but if you want to go and take off your clothes that's just fine ?

thing. thank you for giving that to others with your story.

It's not like I planned this long drawn out plot just so I could "play the victim card" here today.

I obviously never wanted my life to be public knowledge. Especially here. But it's out there now. I didn't want to read any of those responses. But even tho I feel slightly humiliated for having bared my soul, I am humbled and so appreciative of the support.

Thank you sea for posting this here when you did. I think it was the first step in being able to say it myself. For better or for worse.

It takes real bravery to open your soul like that,I admire the he'll out of you,truly.

extreme, but it doesn't diminish you and the bravery and strength you showed. You have so many friends here to support you.

Who was pimped out by her mother, performing acts WITH her mother at age 8. And her mothers 'boyfriends'

I once met a brother and sister both rescued from child pornography.

I know many women who have been raped or assaulted. I know many victims of family rape. All to often they are sex workers, but not always by any means

One have my best friends for many years (dead now) had been a prostitute, was molested by her relatives, and was raped so many times she just shrugged it off. Drank herself to death.

My patients, some them with horrible backgrounds actually seem to have a harder time healing from surgery. (Anecdotal)

I have friend who was murdered by a serial killer.--She suffered horrible abuse first from her family then her psycho husband.

I had a friend who had her throat cut by her boyfriend and lived, also an abuse surviver--she dealt drugs, and I forget what happened that night.

When I was younger, I lost dozens of friends to AID's-- most of them street prostitutes, many were running away from abuse. My oldest daughters father was a male prostitute at age 13. I didn't know for years that was pedophilia--we didn't understand, you see. My sons father was Native American-- he was molested by one of his mothers boyfriend at a very young age and died of alcoholism in his 40's

I'm telling you I understand, I spent some of my youth on the street, and while my story is a bit different, I related to all of them, as I relate to you. You're not alone and far from playing 'the victim card' I'll guarantee some silent woman or girl will read it and feel less alone, less ashamed and find some hope. That's how it works with us.

To this day it takes a lot for me to get close to people, I think it's because in my heart, I think they're just going to die. Everybody else did, it seems.

Recovery from abuse is a long time-- a lifetime sometimes and that's ok.

To end on a light note? My friend who was pimped out by her mom is now a CPA, has a wonderful husband, ( it's a long story I won't get into) but when her mother finally was dying from side effects of heroin abuse, she took her kids to see her, forgave her the best she could. Allowed her kids to know their grandmother (within certain limits)

I'll tell you right now I don't have whatever it takes to be able to do that.

And the response of some here to such a painfully honest post in the other thread said far, far about them than you. I am so, so sorry for how you were treated. I can't even imagine reading your story and having my mind go where some of their's went.

Some want to deny the experience of you and millions of people in the world. Why? They don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

Seems to be the common theme, from the "objectification" threads to the "white privilege" threads to everything else - people literally cannot see past their own fucking noses. And it is a sad, sick thing to behold.

after I kicked up this old post. I'm not surprised. There aren't many new lows I can think of that would come from a certain set of posters here.

I have grown to love and lean upon many of the strong voices here in this group. Your strength has been my rock. I am no longer embarrassed nor am I ashamed of my life. I am not broken and I am not damaged. It wasn't easy, but I have a good life now. I have wanted to write a book for so very long. I think the time has finally come.

I've decided it's time to call it quits on DU. This place overall is just too toxic for me.

I want to give my deepest thanks to all of you for standing by me and showing your support. Without your support, I would have spiraled into that familiar bottomless depression. So thank you.

Take care.

check back from time to time, there is always hope for improvement. And at least come back when your book is done.