Michigan.

Then again I'll never believe it wasn't race and gender.

Anyways - the Felon is in charge and I don't believe Israel is going to look the same in the next 6 months. Gaza had a fighting chance with Harris. There's no chance now.

We get the government we deserve - you have to win to effect change.

same with some concerning the Palestinian situation. Although a worthy cause it did nothing to help their cause by withholding their vote.

Out of some half-assed effort to spite the Dems... Bravo, well done you "principled voters" who wanted to "send a message"... Take a bow 👏

You ever noticed that no matter what's going on in the world, no matter how disillusioned they are with a candidate, GOP voters **NEVER** stay home or vote Dem just to spite their own party? Even the so-called libertarians don't throw away their votes on the official libertarian candidates -- They vote straight MAGA because they know elections have consequences... 24 years later a large chunk of Dem voters still haven't figured this shit out 😐

Protecting the DEI/affirmative action program that's been in place since before our country was a country was the issue. It's beyond unacceptable that 53% of white, anglo women voted for this garbage.

and tell me who made the mistakes. If I'm wrong I'll apologize then.

There are countless subgroups that people can pick and choose from to make this case.

The bottom line is the choice was between a deranged lunatic and a decent man who had a solid four years a POTUS - not even a choice for any rational, reasonable person.

Over 70 million voters used a LOT of different rationals to vote for the deranged lunatic.

Stop sending Israel weapons - lose Jewish and other votes.

Let Israel have a totally free hand - lose progressives and other votes.

It was the proverbial rock-and-hard-place scenario for Biden/Harris.

Biden's ultimate position, one of speaking against the war but still providing weapons, was confusing to say the least.

becsuse most Jewish people don't vie based on Israel.

Biden supports Israel because that's his actual position. He referred to himself as a Zionist.

And he lost the Muslim votes because of lgbt issues.

I was born Jewish. Personally, it ain't for me.

All my life, I've known some who take it seriously. Israel is always on their mind.

I know Jews who voted for Trump. I live among them. They believed Trump would be better on Israel and that's their vote. The other issues didn't matter.

There are two types of Zionists:
1) Ones who support Israel, and screw everything else.
2) Ones who support Israel, and support the rights of others to exist, as well.

You got a link for your statement about Muslims, or are you just saying what you want?

The fact that most Jews voted for Harris and she was more critical of Israel while muslims voted for Trump.

As is, Trump won a higher percentage of Jewish voters in 2024 (32%) than any Republican has since George H.W. Bush in 1988.

To put that into perspective, in 2016, Trump won only 24% of the Jewish vote.

Gains were made there. A more aggressive policy toward Israel absolutely could have shifted more Jews away from Harris. In the end, the Biden team was in a no-win situation, which I think the poster you replied to is referencing.

So that 8% is at most 480,000 votes spread across all the states if literally every adult Jewish person voted. It's statistically unlikely that was enough to tip the election by itself.

But that said, the link you cite says that the National Election Pool didn't post Jewish election results which they did and those numbers were 79% Democratic and 20% Republican. And CNN's exit poll showed 78% to 22% So there's at least some competing evidence.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls
https://www.cnn.com/election/2024/exit-polls/national-results/general/president/0

The issue is that Harris saw a drop in Jewish support and even then, Biden still had a very favorable approach to Israel. Had he completely backed away from Israel and refused to support them, any improvement Harris saw with Muslims would likely be negated by losses with Jewish voters.

Again: there was no winning option here. Biden alienating Jewish voters would have hurt Harris too.

The numbers aren't there for the difference in support from 2020 to 2024 to have been why Harris lost. Given the large number of people who answered saying that the Biden administration's approach to Gaza determined their vote or lack of a vote, that seems more likely to have been the problem rather than any support possibly lost among Jewish voters.

I don't think you understand what is being argued here.

Had Biden taken a more aggressive approach with Israel, Harris maybe does better with Muslims and worse with Jews.

That's the whole point.

In the end, tho, it doesn't matter. Had Harris won the areas of Michigan that have the largest Muslim population by Biden margins from 2020 - she still loses the state.

And likely the election.

The whole situation was a loser for Democrats no matter what Biden did.

"high prices",
than upon anything having to do with the State of Israel...

It is not about being anti-Semitic, Palestinians are Semites too. It's about who we give the power to and who uses it for their own benefit over the benefit to the USA in general. We keep supporting the wrong side in international politics. And we like to kill off the anyone bearing the message. Trump base is most Trump supporters are anti Semitic. They mostly come from a history of cross-burning racists. Say what you will, attach any other ethnic name to what has been happening at the hands of the Ashkenazi Jews who migrated from Europe to Israel since 1948.

I am sure I will be attacked for this but study ME history and argue with the facts, not me.

Not related to religion

who are concerned about security.

-- Full-throated verbal support of Israel with limited arms & intelligence support. --

He'd lose some Israeli voters who would be aware that his rhetoric didn't match his actions, but the Palestinian destruction would be dramatically reduced and their sympathizers would no longer have an endless stream of deaths on video to aggrieve them.

Then it becomes the classic race of who supports Israel more, and Democrats have a built-in advantage there.

It's not an envious situation to navigate, but I think with hindsight it's clear some opportunity was left on the table.

And consider the awful position this put Harris in: choosing between undermining her boss and offering an alternative direction, or agreeing with him and aggrieving Palestinian supporters. Being out of sync with Joe on this must have been an incredible burden for her.

organization, so I wouldn't take the accuracy of a poll they conduct as accurate as they're not independent.

It was backed by the Instituted for Middle East Understanding, but it was not conducted by them.

MFer got 3 million more: 77 million to 74 million.

Where did 3 million voters go? Gaza explains a lot of that to me: Muslim voters, far-Left voters.

Which is what makes useful idiots so damn useful.

muslims already opposed Biden over lgbt issues.

That's why they aren't going after Trump even after he won the way they did after Trump.

Because their concern is not Gaza .

If anyone went over to TicToc or X- you would see about 10 or more dead and shredded babies & kids everyday. Our American kids are seeing horrific mutations of kids every day for a year.

College kids were telling us they would not be voting but only the alternative news carried their interviews. AdultDem women on my Facebook page were posting they could not vote because of genocide.

Recently, some college professors were saying all their students were horrified over Gaza.

What’s Israel doing today. Besides killing more kids (who mistakenly were celebrating the end of bombing) - Israel is bombing the hell out of all the houses in the north to mess more with the Palestinians.

All Kamala had to do was to give the young some hope that she would not continue to send weapons -

I heard of one protest since and that's it.

TV news = everyone eats the same thing and has to like it. If TV declares Gaza isn't important and/or that Israel is justified in its actions, it's viewers will be unaware of the discontent brewing.

Social media is a-la-carte, with the whole world as your menu. If an event resonates with you, you'll form associations that keep you up to date on it. I wouldn't necessarily say they're literally out on the streets every weekend, but even more importantly: they're hyper aware of what's going on and it's essentially a party plank issue for them.

Imagine asking Democrats to come out for a pro-breeding-mandate candidate, or an anti-trans candidate. That's what's being asked of Palestinian supporters in terms of their values. We can't win them over on ancillary issues like unions or diversity when a plank issue is being ignored.

Link to tweet

But I also read something like white evangelical women voted for Trump by 87 percent. And for other white women, Musk pouring millions of dollars in to the misleading RBG pac gave women the impression that Trump had moderated his stance on abortion. Also, states that codified abortion gave women the false sense of security that they didn't have to worry about it anymore. So there went the huge blue wave of women voters.

And even after the betrayal, the man they called "Genocide Joe" spent his final few days in office trying to broker a ceasefire deal... A deal that was already sabotaged because Netanyahu already cut a side deal with Donnie during the election (And oddly enough, none of the "FREE GAZA/CEASEFIRE NOW!!!" crowd was the slightest bit outraged by that news, so thanks for nothing you fuckwits)

But now that they've directly or indirectly helped to reinstall Donnie in the White House, I officially no longer give a shit about the fate of Gaza. The pro-Palestinians didn't care about ANY of the dozens of political issues that were crucial to me, so why should I waste another second worrying about their one issue? They got in bed with their boy Donnie, so let them now lobby HIM for that free and independent Palestine... Goodbye and good luck with that shit...

Obviously Kulinski is at best only half-correct in his analysis, but that is a discussion for another thread.

in a fucking dictatorship??? HELL THE FUCK NO.

Last edited Thu Jan 16, 2025, 09:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Democrats lost because the people of this country will never vote for a Woman, especially not a Woman of Color. It will never change even if demographics change.

The largest poplulation in my state are Women of Color, yet the entire government from dog catcher to governor is white and male. Women of Color have no power and or rights. This is the example for the whole country.

(and they have the right to make up their own minds WHO to vote for)

Statewide disenfranchisement and gerrymandering

POC voting in sufficient number have changed plenty. Voters telling each other "my vote don't count" - not so very much.

The onus always falls on POC. Never the white "working" class.

then jumped to gerrymander and disenfranchisement
- - - - - - - - - - - -

so - having a little trouble tracking ...

Maybe I can fix this by amending ... ANYBODY that allows themselves to be sold (or, alternatively, to voice) the, "My vote don't count .. " sad sack - - is contributing significantly to the condition we find ourselves in today.

Blame Women of Color. Blame People of Color. There is no disenfranchisement, no gerrymandering.

but you go ahead and pursue your own line ...

maybe you might want to think about starting another discussion .. ?

you said

The largest population group. Women make up a 51% majority of my state. POC make up a majority of the overall population.

Its true for my city, county, state house rep, state senator, ag, speaker, lt gov, governor. Why such hostility?

Again, you said in your initial reply:

The Honorable Kamala Devi Harris was one of the best if not the best Presidential candidate in the history of the United States. She was one of the smartest and most qualified candidates ever. She served as the best, most productive Vice President ever.

Secretary-General of the United Nations Kamala Devi Harris sounds better

changing the subject is a losing debate strategy

there were 8 or 10 that went GOP because of 1) immigration, 2) economy, 3) racism and religion

The people doing this poll are trying to make a case, and sell a point.
The logical fallacy in that 'point' lies in that there were other (and considerably BIGGER) issues - that loomed much larger. Not only in swing states, but coast to coast.

How about if the Democratic ticket just takes the union vote? Or suburban white women? (in numbers anything like Obama .. )

The election wasn't won or lost with Muslim votes. And it wasn't won or lost on Gaza.

They and their friends despise him, though, because of our capitulation to Israeli genocide against Gazans.

or the people who very reluctantly voted.

For swaying many gullible people into the “Genocide Joe” camp. Such gaslighting is directly responsible for Trump 2.0. Shameful and pathetic.

Tell that to the surviving family members of the multi-tens of thousands of Gazans who were brutally slaughtered by Israel, including the parents of countless babies, toddlers, children and teens.

The government of those war-casualties. The blame lies entirely on them for starting a war against a stronger opponent. Also I've got news for you: genocidal regimes don't do ceasefires. Israel is generously allowing Gaza 42 days to recover rearm, and that's not a feature of genocide.

Of the top 10 megadonors to the 2 parties, the GOP claimed 8 to the tune of over a billion dollars. The 2 Democratic donors only netted 100k give or take. That is not a level playing field. Take a look at the list at https://electoral-vote.com

to turn into vacation condos.

Hamas gave Putin quite a present

Too many people stayed home, and those who did vote tended to be sexists and racists. There were more of those types than those who weren't who went to the polls.

The end.

After a loss where liberals, neo centrists, white people, minorities, and every other group takes blame for what happened.

Inflation and the inability of voters to understand macroeconomics is the primary reason why we lost.

The history of the antiwar movement dates back to the American Revolution. See link at bottom for their history.

So, where did three million Democratic votes go from 2020 to 2024? The same place the Democratic votes went from 1964 to 1968. Antiwar progressives stayed home in November.

1964: Johnson/Humphrey: 43,129,040 votes (61.1%)
1968: Humphrey/Muskie: 31,271,839 votes (42.7%)

2020: Biden/Harris: 81,283,501 votes (51.3%) to Trump/Pence: 74,223,975 votes (46.8%)
2024: Harris/Walz: 75,019,257 votes (48.4%) to Trump/Vance: 77,303,573 votes (49.9%)

Democratic voter turnout for the incumbent party during both unpopular wars depressed the numbers.

Demographically in 2024, Muslim-Americans made up 1.1% of the US population at 3.45 million people; 1.8 million of them are adults and eligible to vote.

From the Kansas City Star:

In 1980, Jimmy Carter worked his butt of for a peaceful resolution with Iran. It did not go well.
John Kerry's stance on the Iraq War did not seem to help him too much.

Good points. But the post-9/11 hysteria and Islamophobia helped GWB in 2004. During the Iran hostage crisis I seem to recall the MSM portraying Pres. Carter as weak. After the end of the Cold War, Islamophobia seems to have become part of the playbook for the rightwing in many countries.

Anyways, to paraphrase a famous son of Texas about the antiwar bloc:

Islamophobia s still around.

…this crowd. Kumbaya equals lost elections.

BTW: Which part of NYC do you live in?

I can’t believe people can’t get it though their thick skulls just how wildly unpopular the parties social agenda is with the general public. And quite frankly it’s not necessarily the policies themselves. It’s the timing. It made the party seem tone deaf and out of touch with the average American’s immediate concerns over the last couple years. No one outside of the political partisan circles gave to rats asses about Gaza. I speak with (and I’m not exaggerating here), THOUSANDS of people. I don’t recall anyone bringing the subject of Gaza up. They did bring up the price of electricity (up 40% here), property taxes, (going through the roof) gas prices, interest rates, immigration (real or imagined). The price and availability of healthcare. And probably the one that was at, or close to the top, student loan forgiveness. Which Biden just wouldn’t let go of. That one issue alone sunk us with the entire working class.. But not Gaza.

Maybe it’s time to take a hard look in the mirror and try to fathom that the entire country isn’t so racist, sexist or any other “ist” you want to bandy about. That we elected the most flawed candidate in our history. It’s was the public felt our party was out of touch. And didn’t care about them.