Human nature is that people have to learn things the hard way.

People in Europe think the reason Americans are so backwards about safety net,
gun violence, human rights, etc., is because Americans didn't suffer enough in WWII like
Europeans did.

that's true about Europeans, some of them lived with death and destruction with their own countries. I don't know if some could relate to this (excluding DU'ers, we are pretty knowledgeable), but Europeans are quite astute with political topics more than Americans.

Again, we took everything for granted, and paid no mind to "that it can't happen here". But I think those who think they are going to get away with their sick greedy plan will get their comeuppance,

We took all the advances and privilege for granted.

The greedy billionaires and corrupt politicians were not happy, they wanted more and more.

Americans helped build the most powerful democracy and richest country in the history of the world.

But that was not enough for the power and money hungry elite.

The politicians could not have total and permanent power with a democracy.
And could not scam the public with an existing rule of law and ethics.

Billionaires could not become trillionaires.

So it all had to be dumped.

I sincerely hope the disgusting GOP and billionaires learn some lessons.
But we will be forced to learn those lessons the hard way as well.

Not even becoming a trillionaire will be enough for those wealth hoarding addicts. They'll try to enslave everyone on the planet to own absolutely everything, even God if that were possible.

IOW, what they need is an intervention, not another billion dollars.

Money is their god. I think they will turn on each other. There can only be one. I remember a tale about I believe that it was jews. That the ruler was greedy. So the people just started sending him all their money.

All the money, power, deviant sex, drugs in the world will not do it for them.

They will always want more.

It is an addiction and they will destroy the world trying to satisfy their sick needs.

America has an addiction to idiocy.

They will still blame everyone else.

I have tried to help people in 12 step programs by going with them to meetings.
You have to go to them to really understand what is going on and how you can help.

1) You cannot drag them there and expect it to work, because it will not. They are not willing.

2) You cannot defend what is not defensible, all the lies and manipulation the person will do
to feed the beast destroying them.

3) For the real hard cases. Rock bottom is when they are sitting at the bottom of the hell hole they
dug and there is nobody left. They have run off everybody who tries to help them. All their enablers
have finally left leaving them sitting in a very dark place, all alone. One of three things will happen,
they finally look in the mirror and realize they are the problem and that they are the solution to
their problem. Only then can you help them.

Or they sit at the bottom still blaming everything that has happened on everyone else and live a
miserable life to whatever end comes. Usually, they just keep on committing slow suicide.

Lastly, they finally drive themselves insane and seeing no hope they do commit suicide.

And that is the saddest part of all of it because their family and friends want to help but have to
watch a slow-moving train wreck happening and are unable to stop it. That is why it is called tough
love.

I was a therapist for over 40 years and know that some people are on a self destructive path
and nothing will ever get them off, no matter how much intervention.

They will never blame Trump for anything bad that happens, never. It doesn't matter how strong the evidence or how obvious where the fault lies. They will always blame someone else. It's a cult, and religious beliefs aren't rational, by definition.

the things you heard. Just those 12-step meetings were enough for me to want to
pound my toes with a hammer so I would have something more painful to think
about instead of the headache and the heartache watching someone you care for
slowly destroying themselves. I am in that situation right now with my nephew.
According to him life is wonderful, according to his family he is ruining his life and
theirs, especially his mothers. She is the only one who cannot let go and just keeps
enabling him. If I confront him, he will just blame his family members and seek his
revenge on them. All I can do is stand by and watch for any sign where I can offer to
help, but I been down the road enough to use caution on when to jump because he
may have figured out I am on to him and will try to manipulate that situation to his
advantage. Do you have any good ideas how to put all these addicted to Lumpy fools
and Mindless Assholes Groveling Around Trump's Shit people on a big enough couch
for deprogramming or do we just sit back and watch them eventually fall apart and
enjoy the show even if we are going to have to suffer thru it ourselves? Maybe we can
form up some support group like Al-anon to help all of us since we are their victims.

I was so lucky to have a job that was challenging, fascinating, complicated and never boring or mundane.
And I like being useful and providing a service.

If we cannot leave the planet a tiny bit better than when we arrived, what the hell is the point
of being here?

Anyway yes you don't want to know every thing I learned and heard.

That is a big question and important one.
I am not sure we have thought about this enough.

It is probably going to take more than one person to come up with a plan.

That said, cult research shows that with every truth bomb, some of the cult peels off.
But some of the cult doubles down.

So perhaps as Trump does more and more damage, his adoring crowd
will begin to wake up.

But as I said, some Nazis in WWII didn't wake up until staring at the barrel of gun pointed at them
by American GIs. And looking at their obliterated country.

Oh we do need a support group.
We are afraid and also grieving the loss of our democracy, rule of law, freedom.

On your nephew can you support the enablers and help them with tough love instruction?

And sitting in a country blown to bits by the allies.

They changed sides to save themselves, it because they actually changed.

They weren't changed, they were stopped. They were stopped when looking down the barrel of a gun held mostly by Red Army soldiers, but also some from the US and Britain and many courageous resistance groups.

Germany changed, and enacted tough laws against Nazis.
But did they do it on their own, or because the allies insisted?
Yes perhaps it was more that they were stopped, not really changed.

For example psychopaths like Trump and Putin will never never change.
They can only be stopped and prevented from harming others.

Most of the perpetrators walked. As the Red Scare got rolling in the US, that was the end of any serious attempt at holding the war criminals accountable. "Anti-Communism" was the excuse for putting Nazis back in power., and fast tracking many war criminals and Nazi collaborators into the US.

I get what you are saying but this has been bubbling beneath the surface for a very long
time. It may be in their nature so to speak. A little blast from the past that holds true
today. The old becomes new again and again and again.

So we only made them go into hiding. Only to pop up again.

Can we will change human nature?

There will always be a battle between good and evil.
It is the iconic human condition.

media for last 40 years with no counter. We will pay the price of letting it metastasize.

Or women who cross state lines.

there was Air America on the radio.
It's where Rachel Maddow was recruited from.
Was I mad bc I couldn't afford cable TV where she went.

There is always someone else to blame. Now we have the trans panic. In the 80's the Satanic Panic. Who knows what panic will be next to blame their problems on?

Bartender, a round of suffering and degradation for all!

And a bowl of peanuts and syphilis please.

involve pain and suffering in order to learn our lessons? My answer is no and pain and suffering occurs when we have exercised our free will in a negative fashion.

yes indeed.

in a very, very negative fashion. So what now follows?

One non political example is my sister was an alcoholic for many years yet was functional until she wasn’t. She did not seek help until she hit rock bottom and I told her she was no longer welcome to stay with us until she went into rehab center I’d arranged for her. That level of tough love was hard on both of us. She’s now 5 years sober and seems very happy.

it effects them.

I'm also thinking will the felon's own supporters turn on him????? when things start going bad on them??

Gas will be $1.89, eggs .99/carton, good paying jobs will pop up everywhere, and housing prices will go down 75%.

There will be deportation roundups and crying brown children on TV every night for entertainment.

They really believe this. How long will it take for them to become disillusioned? That depends on how quickly he decides to shove his middle finger in their faces and laugh, as he has done to working people all his life.

I don’t think it will take long. He enjoys other people’s pain, and he is too contemptuous of his cult members to wait long to let them know it.

Of that much I have little doubt. My question: "Will we actually learn anything from the impending pain and suffering, and, if so, how long will it be until Americans forget said lessons and need to learn them all over again?"

Because if you look at history those types of events and turmoil often precede the rise to power of fascists and authoritarians. You're making a big assumption that people will reject them when people could in fact be pushed further into their camp especially if some group or something else can be scapegoated.

But I see nothing else that might awaken people to what is happening.

The potential opposition to MAGA often seems to be snoozing or in denial, but the MAGA supporters are alert and awake. They know what is happening, and they love it. They will be seeing others suffer, and are very happy about that prospect. They are willing to overlook their own suffering, just so long as others are suffering more.

...that Jeebus is coming and they will be OK while watching their enemies burn.

the extreme religious factor will play a big part unfortunately. But they are NOT religious at all, they are more like a cult.

Why do I keep on thinking about Handmaids Tale???

(damn good TV show, tho)

there are no more elections. It won't matter if the magas suffer and change their minds about trump and the new republican party.

Unfortunately, it often doesn't work that way.

Read what William Shirer discovered when interviewing everyday Germans after WWII. Every German city lay in ruins and millions had been killed. Had they learned their lesson? Were they sorry they had supported the Nazis?

"There was so much that was true that did not make sense: the monumental apathy of the German people and their deep regret, not that they had started the war, but merely that they had lost it; their whining complaints at the lack of food and fuel and their total lack of sympathy or even interest in the worse plight of the occupied peoples, for which they bore so much responsibility; their boredom at the very mention of the Nuremberg trial, which they were convinced was only an Allied propaganda stunt; their striking unreadiness for, or interest in, democracy, which we, with typical Anglo-Saxon fervor and blindness, were trying to shove down their throats."

― William L. Shirer, End of a Berlin Diary

Complained that the bombs were keeping them from going on vacation.

after eating a cheeseburger. They won't complain about the damage tRUMP did to so many during his 2nd term, but they'll
gripe mostly that tRUMP died too early, who would have gone for a 3rd term (despite it not being legal).

And they'll continue their endless whining about not getting a bigger share of income despite not working for it, and their total lack of sympathy or even interest in the worse plight of the people that tRUMP tried to rip their social security or Obama Care away.

Always moaning too that still yet, despite the tax cut of 2017, that he and his rich cronies are still paying too much tax on their incomes/wealth, despite so many being destitute in this Country (tRUMP - they don't deserve anything!).

-Just watch them put out a new tax cut bill. And not pay for it;

-New health care bill to replace Obama Care? Nope, they still can't come up w/ anything new still!

-Watch them (and this will scare some DUers coming into their hard-earned social security dollars when they finally retire during tRUMP's term), try to piddle and downsize future social security payments for those finally starting to withdraw their paid in social security benefits.

The GOP had in the past already chopped off $500 billion before, and now, we will see them cut untold billions more from future payments to social security, to food stamps, aid to blue states, you name it. Sharpen your blades and tongues, we will have to use our wits to prevent the gutting of these benefit plans to benefit the 1%ers, despite them getting so much wealth over the last decade or so.

It was about the Allies getting into the camps to free the people who were left after the Nazis took off. It was of course, horrific. They made the townspeople and mayors come in to witness what was going on in their names, and to bury the people who had died and were still literally where they fell. Their response? They had no idea this was happening (I knew nothing!) and besides, (brace yourself) the production of the gas used to kill the prisoners created jobs for the townspeople.

They all knew.

"I knew nothing" wasn't just a line from Hogan's Heros.

It's not going to wake Americans up. They kind of woke up in 2020, but only for a little bit before slipping into a coma.

Voters are brainwashed by the Right's ownership of the Mediascape: Radio, Cable News, Local News, Podcasting, & social media. Their corrosive messaging is relentless.

Liberalism, frankly, has no counter.

by incompetently handling COVID-19, yet a few years later it didn't matter to Americans who voted to re-elect him. If they can brainwash people into not remembering or caring about that, they can do so about the depredations to come.

There are plenty of conservatives who hate Trump and his followers but that is because they belive facts and don't consume the stupidity and lies that spew forth. We should never lose site of the fact there are good conservatives, we might not agree with what they want on policy but that doesn't make them automatically part of the the cult.

The JVL argument makes surface-level nihilistic sense, but conservatives will just blame Dems and minorities as per usual. It's not like they ever learned anything before.

I think right now America is under the spell of relentless and instense propaganda.

Biden produced the best economy in generations, but people got convinced by the media everything is horrible. I think the reverse will hold, things will go into the tank and the propaganda will convince people everything is awesome.

I base this on some odd polling I've seen the last 4 years. Polls on the economy and finance were highly sensitive to how the questions were asked. The majority of people would say the econmy was bad and that they were worse off because the economy was so bad. But when asked about their own personal finances the overwhelming majority of people would say, "Oh, well I'm doing better financially and so is most of my family." There was a clear disconnect. Doesn't mean some people weren't struggling, doesn't mean we didn't need to try to help those that were struggling, just means that the impressions of the economy were peculiar.

And I think now people will say the opposite, "Well, sure, I lost my job and my house, and most of the people I know are struggling, but I'm better off in the long run because the economy is so great." People will say that even if UE hits 20%.

the economy is perceived much differently REGARDLESS of what the stats say

I agree Trump is RIDICULOUS but paychecks have NEVER kept up for decades now and it is really hurting people - they are squeezed tight and on top of that they are supposed to fund their own retirements.

Oh, and I don't believe ANY polling - nope.

That's simply not true. Paychecks more than kept up under Biden, wages grew more than prices. And who did more to lower the price of medicane than Biden? No one in the last 50 years.

Some people were still struggling, absolutely, but somehow those people all the sudden got 100 times more attention under Biden than they did Trump.

And look at Trump's first priorities. Priority number 1 is getting rid of price controls for medicine and getting rid of the cap on Insulin of $35. So struggling people will soon be paying $100s a month for the Insulin they need to survive. Of course when that happens, the Ologarch controlled media will be nowhere to be found to bring even mild attention to it.

keep up

and I agree Trump will make things worse but Americans have very short attention spans indeed

President Joe Biden and the Democrats fault when they will have no power. And the stupid brain washed idiots will walk off the cliff with their maga monster 🍊 💩 🤡 and never realizing they have been hoodwinked by lies.

to blame for their problems.

But Americans certainly are the author of their own suffering -- whether through active participation or apathy the majority of Americans have repeatedly chosen to make America the way it is. Different choices were always available to be made; they were not.

The animating force for MAGA appears to be hatred of certain others. Perhaps people oustide of MAGA who voted for Trump might wake-the-fuck-up but I just don't know.

I like it,
Not much changes until that happens.

They have been bubbling under the surface for a very long time.

They’ll be more inclined to blaming and punishing their perceived enemies. Case in point, Germany in the lead up to WWIi.

You know after 2020 I thought we’d cement Democratic rule for a long time. I believed that even one hundred years from now that Democrats running for office could paint their opponents as another drumpf, and the stigma of that name would be enough to convince the electorate to never go back to those dark times.

That naive believe did not even last ONE election and not only did we elect a drumpf clone. We elected drumpf himself. I fear no amount of suffering under the crippling weight of the right wing media and social media will ever convince the majority of voters that the Democrats aren’t to blame for everything working in their lives.

Being fed FoxNews Propaganda daily.

When Dems work their butts off to ease the suffering, voters will say "trump ain't so bad, what's the big deal?" Nothing changes without suffering.

MAGAts don't care how much they suffer because they know "those people" are suffering as much or more than they are -- making "those people" suffer is the point of the game.

save them. But even those who have truly suffered could start to realize they've been conned when the pain gets seriously worse. C'mon, these are people who voted against Biden because prices rose due to Covid supply chain issues. They will squeal in pain when it gets seriously worse due to across-the-board tariffs on all imports goods and Trump doesn't know how to ease off inflation the way Biden very successfully did.

MAGA will happily burn it all down and turn America into a real-life Mad Max movie as long as they are comforted by the fact that people of color are suffering worse...

Of course by that time, the billionaires and their offspring will be living on their Martian libertarian paradise.

You see, I don't belief in "collective guilt", nor the need to 'atone", especially not for the sins of the smallest majority to win a presidential election in 40 years. I'll leave you guys to enjoy the breast beating.

fact that shit is going to rain down on all of us no matter how we voted.

And I think the point of the OP had nothing to do with collective guilt or atoning either. I think it has to do with the fact that, until those who vote for the felon feel pain, they will just continue to create more pain.

Those who voted for Stump, graduated summa cum lotto!

Who said the Republicans can't get anything done?

the ethnic or socio-economic scapegoat du jour; Faux News will run with it, Elmo will add his own bullshit conspiracy twist to it, and the next thing we'll see on the news is another angry white kid shooting up a black church or an El Paso Wal-Mart...

Trumpers are cultists for a reason and they'll never turn against the billionaire overlords playing their stupid asses like pawns.

Some of them come out better after that experience, but a lot come out worse.

These folks need to feel the pain they've been inflicting on others for years.

I love my sisters dearly, & we get only get a chance to get together once a year, so we tend to stay away from politics. They're all Republicans, but 2 out of the 3 would not vote for Trump in any election. However, the youngest is pretty hard right. We're getting together in a couple of months, and I don't know of I'll be able to hide my schadenfreude when her retired fighter pilot significant other finds out that he's losing his disability income.

They have no ability to understand anything that isn't personal.

It doesn't happen until it happens to them and than they get it....but ONLY because it has affected them.

I will not be surprised if things are much worse under Trump 2.0

For example, the COVID crisis could have been much worse.
Trump wanted to repeal ACA 3 years before COVID.
He failed due to the Democrats, some Republicans in the House, and 3 Republicans in the Senate.
What would have happened to the hospitals in this country, if you had patients with COVID symptoms showing up with no insurance.
Some COVID stays have lasted weeks if not months.

I am afraid there will be very little, if any, Republican opposition to his current nominees.
None of the current healthcare nominees would have got us out of the last COVID crisis; they are anti-vaxxers, anti-lockdown, and proponents of herd immunity.

Will all of the Republicans rubber stamp every Trump decision.

MAGATs didn't 'Facts' or "Reason" themselves into their worship of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. Once the consequences hit their wallets and insurance policies, they'll have to abandon their illusions.

Along with everyone else in the world

Going on 250 years, many people across the globe have felt the same way.

ppl here hate him, but I guess he wasn't wrong.

that Democrats are to blame for their suffering in the upcoming years, that success will undercut the force of your argument. To wit: it's not climate change or global warming that is causing California fires, but bad Democratic forestry management (even though roughly 40% of land in Calif. is on federal land). Also, it was Biden's fault for inflation not coming down, even though inflation at the time was a global phenomenon. Always a way to make things the Democrats' fault.

In essence: they will be told by Fox, Sinclair, Trump, etc., etc., "If you are suffering, t is either 1) the Democrats' fault or 2) your own fault.

Minds are being controlled/manipulated in this country, and truth is being obscured everywhere. It's 1984 40 years later, and in a capitalist country.

Plutocratic power is dominating everything.

People who believe they are superior to others, on the other hand they believe something is being taken away from them. They are the victors and the victims at the same time. Suffering will not move the hardcore but maybe those people who sat out the last election will grow a clue.

let me die first.

Or win the lotto.

Be extremely cautious with money- big purchases. Stock up where you can
Keep maintenance up on vehicles and homes
Don’t engage the magats
Volunteer for the Dems if you can, and give money, if you can
Keep a positive attitude, seek help if needed
Keep up with health routines and exercise
Take a news break if and when needed.

Some will just die off. The oldest Baby Boomers are in their late 70s. Folks 80 and over, the most Republican of all age groups, just won't be around that much longer, especially with cuts to Social Security and Medicare. Furthermore, Republicans have nothing close to the margins Democrats have in the under 50 crowd, and those voters aren't dying anytime soon.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/age-generational-cohorts-and-party-identification/pp_2024-4-9_partisan-coalitions_4-01-png/

They want their base to be asleep when it comes to what's going on in the United States.
They want their zombified base to allow their rulers to tell them what to see, what to hear, how to feel, what to believe, how to act, and, most importantly who to hate.
And these zombified Magats are more than willing to surrender their consciousness to their Republican masters. It's easier to go through life if you don't have to make hard decisions, and have ready made scapegoats to blame when things don't go well in your life.

So, suffering is inevitable when you give up any chance of actually living your own life. For many of them, truth can only break through when their pain overrides this desire to have others live their lives for them.
This is a lesson of love that so many people have not been able to learn. For them hate is easier, and, when others direct your hate, it feels so consequence free.
But then the actuality of life is patient, and can eventually break down those barriers, forcing many people to confront their false realities.
I should point out that, as far as Magats are concerned, most of them will never wake up, and effectively die long before their actual death. Zombie life is so shallow.

The one thing, broadly speaking, that I have noticed re: the empathy gap between righties and lefties is that righties never feel empathy for anyone else unless it hits them PERSONALLY.

Until an issue directly affects them or their families, it's BS bloviating and regurgitation of cement-headed right-wing talking points.
It's a shame, really. They are failing as human beings.

Didn’t we already suffer under 45? And look how the fascists are throwing out blame for the LA fires. There are fewer guardrails every day. Sorry to say.

People need their noses rubbed in the shit pile called the Republican party that Democrats have been saving them from time and time again. Unfortunately, they are so out of touch (brainwashed) that they are totally unappreciative, they blame Dems for things the Republicans want to do and are doing to them and, in many cases, credit the Republicans for the good things Dems have done for them.

People need to experience stuff that will reveal Fox news and the rest of right-wing media as the lying, fascist propagandists that they are.

lt will hurt everyone, but I really can't see what else will get through to people at this point.

Sadly, too many people seem to be clueless as to what these bastards are about.

Seems they need to feel the consequences of giving them power.

Democrats, however, need to play hardball and don't pussy foot around the issue either, or their liable to blamed for "enabling" them.

who knows they might not make it through.

regimes they will control the MSM and talking points.

Much of that media is falling right in line.

But then again, many of those vulnerable people voted for Trump. So fuck em.

They shouldn't vote for face-eating leopards.